Legit Parenting
Legit Parenting
Unraveling the Impact of Parental Substance Use on Family Dynamics with Steve Carleton LCSW, CAS | Founder @ Growth Effect
Navigating the choppy waters of parental substance use, we're joined by Steve Carleton LCSW, CAS | Founder @ Growth Effect. Steve is a seasoned addiction specialist, who helps us unpack the effects this has on the family dynamic. As we shed light on the stark realities and societal judgements surrounding substance abuse – with an especially magnified lens on motherhood – our discussion is a catalyst for changing perceptions and fostering support. This heart-to-heart is a treasure trove of insights, offering understanding and actionable advice for families wrestling with the presence of alcohol or drugs within their home.
The fabric of family life is often threaded with cultural norms, and our episode doesn't shy away from examining the role alcohol plays in this tapestry. From 'mommy wine culture' to the iconic martini of James Bond, we dissect the symbols and pressures that subtly influence parental drinking. But it's not all about critique; we share personal stories and strategies for promoting responsible drinking, modeling moderation for our children, and ensuring a safe and mindful approach to alcohol.
Finally, we delve into the oft-overlooked intersection of mental health and substance use. Our guest provides a fresh perspective on harm reduction, advocating for moderation and safe storage of substances to protect our young ones from unintended exposure.
Sharing this dialogue is not just about sparking thought; it's about igniting change and resilience in family life. Join us on this journey and bring home the wisdom to stir, not shake, your family's foundation.
Welcome to Legit Parenting, where imperfect parents build resume kids and families. A place to learn real solutions based in brain science to fit your unique parenting style. We show you how to tackle today's challenges for children and teens. Remember, when it comes to raising kids, you just have to be this side of good enough. Join us and we will show you how. I'm your host, craig Nipenberg. I've been a child and family therapist for nearly 40 years. I'm the business owner of one of Colorado's largest private practices, best-selling author and father of four. In my fathering world, I've been a birth death, a single parent, a step parent, adopted parent, a parent of exceptional students and a grandparent of two. By my side is Sydney Moreau, our production manager and mother of three ages preschool through 18. Together, we bring you a guilt-free parenting perspective with solutions that actually fit into your real life. Welcome to Legit Parenting. I'm your host, craig Nipenberg, along with my producer and mother of three, sydney Moreau, and Sydney, our guest today, who I'll introduce shortly.
Speaker 1:First, I want to thank Dr Robert Brooks for being on our last show. He is just the most gracious individual you could ever meet. He is something else. He emailed me yesterday, got a copy of my book and he was so complimentary. Just an amazing author, amazing man and really the father of the modern resiliency movement. He's all about building resiliency and he really started it off 25, 30 years ago and I think in essence, from that podcast the takeaway is it's not what happens to your kids, it's how you teach them to respond to what happens to them, and that is a key of Legit Parenting and a key for resiliency for your children.
Speaker 1:Now today's guest is my friend, steve Carlton. I'll read his bio quick. Steve Carlton is a licensed clinical social worker and certified addiction specialist. He has been practicing in the field of substance use trauma in mental health since 2007. Steve is the chief clinical officer of Front-Rage Clinic Portulite Health and a professor at the University of Denver Graduate School of Social Work, of which I am an alumni in 1982. That's a long time ago, steve. He is an individual therapist, spokesperson, facilitator and expert witness. He's provided 10 years of service for the Department of Veterans Affairs and was the former chief clinical officer for Gallus Detox, a cutting-edge medical drug and alcohol detox facility. Steve, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2:It's great to be here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I got to tell you I had a lovely coffee with your wife, who's helping with the PR stuff on my book. Yeah, and you two are just peas in a pod, I think.
Speaker 3:That's right. Yeah, thanks, greg. I appreciate you really enjoyed that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, she's just awesome. Now to get us started, just wanted to say this is usually when you listen to podcasts parenting podcasts about drugs and alcohol it's all focused on your kids, right? How do you help them, how do you prevent that. But we're going to take it a different direction to start, which is parental use of substances and being a role model for your kids. So we're going to look at adult use of adult products and how that impacts children, and then we'll look at how to help your kids, and this may have to be a two-part show because I'm guessing there's a lot to talk about Now. I want to start with a question for Steve and Sid, after the audience too. So I got an email from one of my supervisees and said that she had heard about a parent who had a substance abuse problem. Now, when they say that, who do you generally think is the one with the substance abuse the man or the woman in a traditional marriage, female or male?
Speaker 3:That's interesting, and I think that is very common for people to initially think about mother first. Whenever we think about parenting, there is just naturally there's always more pressure on mother and sadly, I think there's more judgment. When you see mothers drinking or using some type of substance, there's more vitriol around that not being okay than when you have a father that's drinking or using in the home. And by the number, the reality is men more often than not have men are more likely to have a problem with substances than women.
Speaker 1:Okay, so statistically, if you thought a male that would say it, but I think we're all agreeing that it's both could be both, or one or the other. And the judgment piece I was thinking about what you just said, and I think there's probably a couple different parts to that is we're stereotyping men and men are going out after work having the beer, they're having dinner dinners for the business, right. They're going on entertainment events for the business, they're at the abs games, they're at the steak houses and lots of alcohol involved. And often for moms we don't really think about that right away, although we know moms struggle with it as well and sadly. We know addictions are a medical issue and men or women are both humans. They both can struggle from that medical issue. But for there is that truth about women are judged more harshly and sometimes I in my own experience with several families where the mom was one with the since abuse disorder, it really impacted the kids. But moms have medical issues as well. But we saw set out the window with them and I've certainly seen a lot over the years of the impact when mom is drinking, but also when dad is to or using other substances. So we're going to look at both, steve. I want to get to our culture of alcohol.
Speaker 1:I've been in the private school for two private schools now for 45 years. We go to lots of events, we've been on my wife and our on boards and there's always seems to be this focus on having alcohol at functions and many times our kids are there too. Right I was when I first got to one of my schools. They would do an annual picnic in the fall back to school picnic with all the children and the dads would have a bar in the middle of the field and you got all the dads sitting around drinking alcohol. Their kids are around having fun, but then everybody's driving home and finally our school had put it into that one and said there's no more alcohol at these events.
Speaker 1:That's really not appropriate, but it does seem. Some of our families are so tight knit and your friends with the kids on the football team or the basketball team, the soccer team which is the rage soccer, of course and you go on these trips to other cities or other areas to play sports and you can always tell when there's a team at a hotel because the kids are just running around everywhere and they're pushing the elevator buttons and the parents are hanging out in one of the rooms of the lounge area drinking beers and it just seems like we really have very much of a culture of alcohol. Families parenting what's your thoughts on that?
Speaker 3:Well, certainly, I think it's really common, truly, and what's interesting when we think about alcohol and culture, and one of the things that I would that's really important for me to point out is when people think about substance use, we think about it in a very binary fashion. People think about substance use and they think someone does have a problem and they need treatment and it's terrible and they can never use a substance again. Or they think about it as I have no problem with substances, right, and there's this huge range in the middle where the vast majority of people fall. It's not binary, it's a long sort of a spectrum, and so getting people to think about their relationship with substances is really critical to thinking about your health and your family's health and what needs to happen next.
Speaker 1:Oh, I've loved that. So it's about with substances and then how that impacts your family. Yeah, I love it, yeah.
Speaker 3:And alcohol is. It's an interesting one because alcohol is the legal substance and in Colorado now we have cannabis as legal, and so people use cannabis recreationally. With alcohol in particular, this is the one that you see the most problems with. When we look at treatment for substances, I think many people might be surprised to learn that 60% of the population of people in treatment for a substance use disorder are people struggling with alcohol. It's the most impactful, it's the most detrimental to your health. It is the one that when you stop using it, if you're badly enough dependent on it, it can kill you if you stop to a problem. That's really important for people to know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that is. And I have a story. I was during COVID when they shut down the liquor stores. Our mayor in Denver decided to close just grocery stores. He closed all the liquor stores and the cannabis stores and it was going to happen the next day. The buddy of mine owns a liquor store and I saw him a couple of days later and I was like I bet you got slammed. He said they cleared our shelves, everything was gone, people were lined up out the door and then I'm thinking, oh great, the mayor decides that Now you've got all these people lined up with no masks, on shoulder to elbows, going into the liquor store buying anything they can. It was just a free-front. And the next day the mayor lifted that one and said no, we're not going to do that. Now they can stay open. And I was talking to a friend of mine who's a surgeon in Eastland. Yeah, they don't want to do that because someone who's really addicted, they can die from that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, what does that say about our client? It became a necessity. I distinctly remember that as well and I remember driving home from the VA where I was working at the time, and the lines were out the door. It was just, it was wild. And the same thing happened in Texas. My father growing up ran a chain of liquor stores in Dallas and the same thing happened there that happened in Colorado. They quickly realized that it was a necessity during the global pandemic and they could not shut down liquor stores. What does that say about our culture?
Speaker 1:The pot shops they got opened up to, they were allowed to do their work. That is an interesting take. I sometimes have always wondered how prohibition ever happened.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and prohibition was really interesting. It actually had. It was a bad idea in general and I think it made it subversive and started making it illegal, but there were. There was a reduction in crime during prohibition, there was a reduction in domestic violence and all of these other things that were actually benefits to prohibition, but it was so poorly received in general. We live in the US and I believe people should have freedom and choice, obviously, but yeah, it's interesting sort of how culturally we're dependent on them as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I also want to touch back on your point about your relationship with substances and it's good for you as a parent out there, yeah, to think about how that developed for you. And I'll give you a personal example Years ago. I'm a big believer in any therapist should have their own therapist too, and I've had several over the years, just to keep yourself clean and centered and dealing with what we deal with. But I was exploring my relationship to martinis, which is my favorite drink, and it goes back to when I was like fifth grade, fourth fifth grade, sixth grade, watching James Bond movies and James Bond elegant and his tuxedo, always a beautiful woman he's with and he's having his martini shaken, not stirred.
Speaker 1:That's right, and that was like my myth of that means you made it. If you can get to a point in your life where you can get dolled up and you're with your wife or your girlfriend and you can have sip on a martini, like that to me was the ultimate in just living a spectacular life, right? Unfortunately, my wife really knows when I've had too many martinis and has quick cut me off. So that's a good thing. But I have a strategy for that now. We'll talk about later. But it's interesting too, because you talked about, with prohibition there was a decrease in violence, domestic abuse and as we look at, okay, what your relationship with substance as a parent does that impact your family? We know alcohol shuts off your impulse control system. People drink too much. Some people want to start fighting, right, they want to drive. And if you ever ask them, are you okay to drive? What do they say? Of course, sure, I'm fine. Yeah, no problem, grab the keys quick.
Speaker 1:But it you really have to think well, how does it look for your kids if you come home, mom or dad, and you start having a disagreement about the dog or how one of them was on the gaming too long when the children was gaming past their bedtime and instantly sparks fly and your kids are in their room and guess what they're doing? They're listening and they feel heartbroken and I think it's important. You know, we know, all couples struggle. That's essential to any relationship. We know and I talked about this in my book that kids need to understand conflict. They need to understand disharmony. That happens in their relationship with you, happens between mom and dad, happens in a family. Right Could be with mom and the grandparents, or you and the grandparents. As the child, that discord happens. But if you're noticing a pattern where it's more frequent or it's more intense when substance are being used, then you really need to think about that and how do you change that dynamic.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's right, and I think when you're thinking about your relationship with substances, you know that that's it's not an altogether abnormal experience to, as a parent, have too much to drink and do something or say something that that was stupid and that you have regrets about. And the message I want people to have is to make those experiences a learning experience, right, not have such harsh judgment about yourself that it actually leads to more of those experiences. We know like shame is, like cayenne pepper is how I talk about it Right, a little bit goes a long way and spices things up. Like too much, you ruin dinner, right. And so when you think about experiences you have with alcohol that go poorly, like, just make sure you're putting that into perspective and looking at all of your options. That's a good time to think about limits to to, like you said, craig, to have your wife give you the high sign. That's probably enough for the meeting we probably had enough, right.
Speaker 1:And so I want to get back to the shame point.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I want to get back to the shame point. You know there is a reason why women are more in tune with when someone had more to drink, too much to drink and it's because women's nonverbal processing system is so much more sophisticated and they notice these subtle micro changes in your face. If I was to make a sober face and then I'm like plastered face there's all these degrees in the middle between sober face and hammered face that women pick up on before men do so she'll be picking up on it. I'm like really, no, I'm fine.
Speaker 1:I'm just, but I'm like I've learned enough 10 years ago.
Speaker 3:Okay, I'll have a glass of water, because they do know they tone of voice changes as well. Yeah, there's lots of subtleties that you can pick up on.
Speaker 1:Those are the nonverbal. That's part of nonverbal too is the tone of voice, body posture, all of that. So that's a plus for women out there. Now I like the cayenne pepper thing, although I will tell you so this is a personal disclosure to our audience. I talk about shame-free parenting. That's the title of the book, and you just have to be good enough like a C A C in parenting. You're fine and let it go. Don't feel guilt or shame. In my own parenting I can recall three times two with my son, one with my daughter that I still feel some shame and it was because I had too much to drink and I made amends. But then I still hold on to it because it keeps me from doing it again. Does that make sense? Oh, absolutely. I don't want to let go of that. I still want to feel that and remember that because I don't want to go down that path again.
Speaker 3:Certainly. But also that like shame-discussed response, right, Like disgust, is that emotion that doesn't habituate, meaning like it's hard, Like when caveman days, if we ate a poisonous mushroom we were dying to always be disgusted when we saw that mushroom again because it kept us from eating it. And so shame, yeah, it does play a role. A little bit goes a long way. A couple experiences like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it can be very worth it. One wants me reaching for the milk for my cereal the other day and I looked at it and I'm like I don't know about this. And I smelled it and the disgust response. You close your nasal system off and sure enough, I poured out lumps. I'm so glad I didn't drink that one. That would have been tough, but yeah. So if the shame leads to disgust and it keeps you from doing it again, that's a very good thing.
Speaker 1:Another thought, and I've mentioned this before if you're at a family event, other families or just at home right, and let's say you come home, you've had a really tough day, you decide to have a couple of beverages and you feel a little buzz and then the kids are fussing, brother and sister fighting whatever. Don't parent. If you've been drinking or using pot, let the other parent handle it. Because if you get involved parenting and disciplining and you've had too much or on the borderline of too much not even it doesn't have to be that much but that impulse control is gone and you're more likely to react in an overly harsh manner. Yeah, is that something you would agree with?
Speaker 3:Absolutely. Yeah, I think you know. Yeah, there certainly is that issue with impulse control, and people don't behave in the same way they do when you've had a few beverages, and I think the opposite is also true when you get further down that spectrum of problem drinking. It's more that you check out right, and so I think both sides of that spectrum play out. You can be more impulsive, you can react in ways that are scary to kids, especially if they're small, and you can also have that emotional neglect, just not being present, not paying attention to those cues from your kid. They're struggling or they're having a problem or they need a hug or more attention in that moment.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I just had a flashback to a middle school student I was seeing with a young man and he said oh, every night my dad just hits the lazy boy drinking and never gets up and often falls asleep in the lazy boy but totally unavailable, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:And I think the other thing that we didn't talk about is what happens when both parents are having a substance use issue. And I think with those types of kids, really, the only emotion that gets modeled in homes is anger. Right, because there is that sort of emotional neglect that's happening. The only time that they do get a reaction or engage them from parents is when they're angry.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they're just behaving, and then the anger gets projected everywhere. Yeah, and you do see, it is given our culture and the whole. Let's get together with friends at the tennis club or wherever up at a mountain, reach you know a cabin or a condo in the mountains for a ski weekend. Everybody's partying.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And the kids are watching that. So that role modeling for kids is pretty. But just like me, with James Blahn Ching Tom and Dad, everybody's using alcohol, maybe other substances, and that's not going to be them. Too long from now, they'll be joining in the same thing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's right, our kids are little sponges and so the behavior that we engage in is you're modeling that for them and you teach us what's appropriate, what's not appropriate, what's okay, what's not okay. And yeah, we just we need to be cautious and remember that our kids are soaking up everything that we do and they're their number one heroes.
Speaker 1:So they'll put up the alcohol, you know, and it won't be too long before they're middle schoolers and they figure out sneaky ways to maybe pinch a beer from that party that's going on or try a little shot out of the fifth vodka that's sitting on the counter. And then you're horrified that they're doing that when you catch them. But that's kind of part of the deal. They are sponges and they like to be sneaky and try things that adults. That's their inclination.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. I remember my first experience drinking as a kid was probably I was young, I was probably an early teen, but I remember having a shot of Grand Marnier out of a little out of the cap of the bottle.
Speaker 1:My God, yeah, it was Grand Marnier.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was. It did not taste great, but yeah, I remember that and it was just that curiosity. I'd seen that in the home and what is this all about? And it's natural for kids to get curious.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the novelty is wired into our brains. We're always looking for something new, but that's human nature. So we are curious and my mom used to say curiosity killed the cat. They are and they are sponges. I love the use of that word. That's phenomenal. Now one other thing on a kind of a cultural trend and I'd say it's been. I asked a couple decades that the whole wine thing, especially for the moms, and somehow wine gets a pass. It's just wine, honey, and if you drink enough wine it's the same if you were doing shots of Grand Marnier.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it doesn't matter. People get really hung up on what they're drinking, and often too much importance on it's only beer, it's only wine. I'm not drinking whiskey every night. It doesn't actually matter what you're drinking. With the wine culture, it is really interesting. Back to our points earlier in the podcast when mommy wine culture we have this term now oh, is it really?
Speaker 3:Yeah, mommy wine culture is this term that's thrown around now to label a mother's drinking habits. We don't have that same term for fathers, and I think that's worth paying attention to. We don't judge fathers in the same way that we judge mothers. That way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the mommy wine culture. Yeah, that certainly is hit. That's big time right now. But again, it's the amount. It doesn't matter what you're drinking. There is some caloric differences, because my wife and I have been working with a trainer on leaning out and it turns out, I mean, they're all junk calories. It's just terrible. But distilled spirits don't have carbs. So if you want to low diet, you can drink rum, vodka, whiskey and you don't have any carbs. It's still junk calories, though You're taking in 100 calories and it's not doing anything good for you, but you don't get the carbs. But it's all junk calories.
Speaker 3:And I think, yeah, and it's important to remember and not Overly drinking is something that people can do in moderation. It can be something that it's not always detrimental. But I think whenever drinking comes up, it just it always tends to put people in that shame space instantly, because anytime the topic comes up, people again get into that binary way of thinking about it. I do have a problem, or I don't have a problem with it.
Speaker 1:And I'd love that because that takes us to okay. So if mom or dad, two moms, two dads, whatever, if you can have a discussion about our relationship with alcohol and how is it impacting our kids, that would lead, in my mind, that would lead to a much less defensive state. So if you're, let's say, one of you had too much the night before and then the other one's pissed and then you get up when you get home and it's a big fight that's not very productive and that gets you in the binary thing. But if you focus on what is our relationship with substances as parents and how do we think it's impacting us or our kids, and I can tell you, as you get older, you really start to think more about the health, about your health and your longevity, and I've had a couple people I've known that have died from liver failure and it is the most horrid death to imagine it's absolutely brutal.
Speaker 1:But if you can couch it in those ways and have discussions about that, when there's been a problem, you wait, do it when you're just both calm and relaxed and say, hey, maybe we should trim back a little bit, it'd be better for our health, be better for the kids and maybe we've been doing a little too much and just creating a plan for that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, talking about it more practically Just when I think about teaching right, Because as a parent, that's kind of our number one role in my mind anyway is what am I teaching my children Right? And the biggest teacher isn't what I say in my 10-minute-long lectures, it's them watching what I'm doing. That is how they learn the most from me. If I can't have a discussion with my wife about what our drinking habits are around our kids, then we got no shove of being able to, in a thoughtful way, teach my kids what is healthy amount of alcohol and what's an unhealthy amount, and so we always need to pay attention and be mindful of that, of having those conversations that's appropriate to do in front of our kids and what's not.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and invite your kids into the conversation. Exactly, they notice, right.
Speaker 3:Because my kids are very aware that I specialize in substance use disorders, because I do some TV appearances and have these things, and so they've heard me talk about it many times and at the same time, my 10-year-old son, probably a couple years ago. He's eight years old and I don't get it. You talk about substances and you talk about these risks, but then you have drinks. Help me understand this, and so being able to explain to them there is a way to enjoy this without it having tremendous negative impacts. I could say it is something risky, but you can do this in a way that's safe, and here's what you need to think about. You need to think about transportation, you need to think about the impact this has on your health. You need to have healthy limits for your cell, and so being able to have those conversations is really important.
Speaker 1:And Bravo to your child for bringing that up. That is so cool. It's an awesome story. I just love that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they'll hit you with it.
Speaker 1:They do and it's out of nowhere, it's just fabulous. And since the holidays are here, that means more family get-togethers, family dinners, and often we're celebrating, there's lots of beverages, people go too far. Then the politics start up and things they remember from 40 years ago they start complaining about again with their brother, sister, their mom, and it just all falls apart. So if you're hosting we hosted Thanksgiving, tom but my wife and I made a decision several years back that we would only serve beer and wine and not the hard alcohol that really just you know, it just goes into you so fast. And so, yeah, wine, beer, alcohol, it's all doing the same thing to you. But the quantity you drink when it's hard alcohol gets much bigger, faster, and so that's one of our family rules we just do beer and wine.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's a great idea because it is those one-off situations where people maybe they really don't drink very often, but they get around family and stress starts to rise and anxiety and tension and this 40-year-old conflict, like you pointed out and all of a sudden people are, yeah, shaken, not stirred. Let's have a martini. That's when things really get sick.
Speaker 1:Oh, thank you for that. Oh, james Bond, you're teaching us more every day. Yeah, oh, that is classic. I just love that. They do get shaken, and the less substances you have, the less powerful they are. You're better off, right, and that's a good way to go.
Speaker 3:I love that strategy, craig, and that's at the heart of what I hope people take away from this conversation. Just like then, practically Like, we all know our families and we all know what exactly can go wrong, especially around the holidays, and so why not just reduce harm and reduce the risk of big blowouts happening around the holidays? Yeah, maybe we steer away from liquor.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because nothing will ruin it faster than that. That's right, and I think too, one of the things.
Speaker 1:I talk about with the teenagers I see, and what I was teaching class for eighth grader, and we talk about substances and I always say to them you have to figure out which ones your brain likes and that's the one you need to be careful of. So we know, for some people they try marijuana, they love it, and people try it and they're anxious and they hate it. Most people when they try tequila want to throw up Other people love tequila.
Speaker 1:Other people might be the vodka or whatever, and about 10 years ago my favorite was Bush Mills Irish Whiskey and it was so easy for me to drink it that I gave it up and about, partly because of my wife, but also I thought I can't drink that anymore.
Speaker 1:And about a year later I read a research study about Northern Europeans have a genetic component. Many of them have this gene that anything like whiskey they just can't, they just drink it like fish and they have a hard time stopping. And I was like, yeah, that would. I'm Northern European, that would explain it. So I even touched a drop in probably 10 years now and that was a commitment I made to, and more so to myself. But you really have to think about what is it you'd like, what is your brain like and really gets your dopamine up, and it's going to really increase your dopamine levels.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I had a head, yeah, I had like a personal have caused me to do things like I have my teeth fixed and to that point we had a peer assistant provided at VA.
Speaker 3:He really struggled with significant PTSD from childhood and two combat tours. And he said this thing in our group so I'll just never forget. Because the most common question is how much of a role does genetics play in developing a substance used as an addiction? And what he said I just thought was brilliant. He would say John Evans was his name and he would say genetics loads the gun and experience fires it. And so meaning there are some of us out there that are much more predisposed to developing an addiction, severe substance use disorder but it is experience that ultimately fires that gun and creates that problem, yeah, and pulls the trigger.
Speaker 1:And so if you have the genes for it and the guns load it, you don't want to play Russian roulette. No, that's probably not a good thing.
Speaker 3:And so that's why people need to be aware. When you have a substance use disorder in the family, you know that that doesn't make you somebody that's going, that's addicted to all substances, but it does increase your risk of developing the problem.
Speaker 1:And if there's a co-morbid mental health disorder. So we know people with bipolar schizophrenia, depression, who run that way genetically, are much more likely to turn to substances as a way to treat it. And I was explaining this to a young man last night whose father has a severe mental illness and substance abuse and he was experimenting with some substance, I won't say which, and he got caught out of the house. It was a hard night for him but I said you need to understand your neurology and your dad.
Speaker 1:I knew your dad. He was a great guy, but when oil prices tanked he got really stressed and it put him over the edge. And when he turned to substances his mental health illness really came out. And I said you might have the kind of his mother is the strongest person I've ever met in my life. And I said you may have your mother's constitution, but we don't know, and so you have to be extra careful. So if there is mental health illness in the family tree, addictions in the family tree, you have to be more cautious with that 100%, craig.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think we've been talking about just your relationship with substance and I think that we did covering this idea that sometimes you can have these one-off nights or these one-off holidays where somebody goes too far and there's a big sort of conflict or blowout. But there's also the most common reason people start using substances is to self-medicate underlying anxiety, depression, a traumatic experience. Right, 70% of people with substance use disorder have underlying mental health issues. Right, the substance use is a symptom more often than not than the primary problem, and if you are somebody that has a loved one that is struggling with substances, it's really important to remind yourself of that. That substance use, more likely than not, is a symptom of something else going on in there, right, what can you wrap your head around? What's the function? Why is Uncle Billy always intoxicated? What is it about? Why they're using? What's the reason behind it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and oftentimes, especially for people who are older, they've experienced losses maybe death of a child, maybe death of their spouse and they just crawl into a bottle to deal with it. But yeah, you really have to think about that and then get the appropriate help and get the appropriate treatment. Yeah, that's right. And you'd probably go further with them. Rather than confronting about the alcohol, talk to them about. You. Seem depressed. Why don't you get some help from your depression and you might get further with that one.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think people often go too quickly for the jugular when they're talking to a loved one about substance use, and we understand that because substance use in families can have such a negative impact on people around that person, and so there's often there is a lot of frustration and anger when somebody is struggling with the substance use disorder because it's impacted you and what I know and I'm sure you've seen as well when you're trying to facilitate those conversations within family. When somebody has harmed someone else with a substance use disorder, it's hard to take a step back and look at that big picture like not just what's right in front of your face, but what's the source of this problem and what's going on.
Speaker 1:What's all the stress underneath? And let's deal with that. Let's target that right about going for the jugular, and especially for Sydney. You grew up with an alcoholic mother. That obviously is going to shape you and make you more sensitive to someone else drinking 100%. Yeah, to be afraid of it. Yeah, sydney, we got to jump in Sydney with any of your thoughts.
Speaker 2:I think you guys are hitting exactly what it's like to grow up with somebody with substance abuse. There is that vacancy from the other parent that children experience when they are intoxicating, or the anticipation of it coming. I know that I have just from my own experiences. I have a very keen awareness of changes in mood and attitude and demeanor in relation to alcohol. So when you are around somebody that is jonesing for alcohol or wanting it, I'm very sensitive to that. I can feel that anxiety and that energy from another person and I'm sure that's how I was raised and then, as you were talking about being so self-aware and present to not only their behavior but your own behavior and how it influences somebody that drinks. So when you have this hypervigilance, you don't want to set them off, you don't want them to be upset because you know that the progression of that is going to probably be that they're going to be drinking.
Speaker 2:And in talking about my own relationship with alcohol, thankfully my mom did get help and was able to get into recovery, but I always knew that that was a chance for me. And so my own relationship with alcohol is that when I start to sense myself having a little bit of a dependency on alcohol. I may be thinking about it Like you talked about that mommy culture, like it's been a stressful day. A glass of wine sounds great when it becomes too much. I will just, in my own discipline, be like because nobody chooses to be alcoholic, nobody chooses to be an addict. It's so detrimental in one's life. So I have that always in the presence of my mind.
Speaker 2:So when I feel like I'm dependent and I don't think that I have the propensity to be an alcoholic, but it's always there. So I'm like, ok, I'm going to take a break, I'm not going to have it tonight, or I'm not going to have it for six months, or I'm just going to evaluate what's going on with me internally, I'll abstain from it. And so I think that's a really real thing. And even with my own children I have a college-age kid, I have a high school daughter I talk about it a lot with them I say you got it on both sides, you have genetically, you guys are ready to go for that and you have to be very aware of it and keep it in check. And my mom always says she wishes she could have a drink, but I think it's an alcoholic synonymous thing Like one drink is too little and 100 is not enough, or there's something of that. But to live with it, one is even healthy not enough.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, and an alcoholic person has such a different relationship with alcohol than a person that is going to enjoy alcohol on the weekends or enjoy alcohol with their friends. There is a distinction in a person that is alcoholic and how they relate to it, how they love it, how they think about it. They love, hate it. When you grow up with it, when you witness it, it's very distinguishable. So I teach it to my own kids. I'm like you can't mess with even marijuana, and I was one of those people that tried marijuana and I absolutely loved it. I loved it and after a little stint in that, I realized how it was going to affect my life and I stopped using it, never went, have not touched it since because I know that I have some wiring in my brain that, oh, give me that. So I think all what you guys are hitting on is just so important.
Speaker 2:And I think it's last thing I'll say is with my 21 year old, who is very much at that drinking age and I know that he enjoys it and he was doing what 21 year old kids do when he was younger, I really tried to teach him moderation in alcohol and allowing him to experiment with trying, like our parents always gave us sips of beers, or I remember my dad giving me some sort of whiskey drink.
Speaker 2:I thought was awful, but having him to understand it's okay to have a glass of wine at dinner, or modeling responsibility as opposed to like complete abstinence of alcohol, because I wanted him to learn and see like when do you cut it off, when do you have a few and then that's enough, because I think that is as important as part of teaching like the effects of it, but also teaching how to enjoy it responsibly to your kids, and not through modeling, but like through here. Try this. This is probably how you're going to want to have alcohol when you get older, because it's a slippery slope. It is a very slippery slope and, yeah, growing up with it was probably one of the best gifts I could have, because it taught me such self awareness with my own relationship of it.
Speaker 1:Thank you, sydney, that was beautiful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I really enjoyed that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I hadn't thought. Steve, if you're open to it because we've had a fabulous conversation, I don't see us having time to do how to help your kids yet or what to do with the kids use. Would you be up for doing another recording after the holidays?
Speaker 3:Oh, I'd love to, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Great, yeah. Now this has been fabulous. I want to throw out two final points and then I want to get to things of beauty. Make me cry. One of the things, steve, I adopted when my son became a teenager and he was never.
Speaker 1:He was in like with all the AP kids so they were having physics parties and studying. So he never was really into that in high school and he's invited in it when he was in college, but never a huge issue for him. But I just remembered as a kid so many of my buddies dads would have bars and they'd have beer on tap all the time or they'd have the big handles of stuff. If you've got middle schoolers and high schoolers and you got that in your house, you were just it's like an open sign going yeah, try it, it's here, right, it sneaks on.
Speaker 1:I adopted the philosophy of single surf usage, meaning instead of getting the handle of vodka to have her on for a while, just buying little shots. Now, it increases your trips to the liquor store and your price, but if you just buy enough for that night and if you're drinking wine and there's still a third of a bottle left, dump it out. Yeah, or you just get shots or you buy single beers, the whole case in half. I think they have that now. It's like the suitcase of beer. If you have the suitcase of beer on the house, some are going to go missing. What I found after he graduated was off. Our daughter was younger then, but it really helped me moderate my consumption. Yeah, so if it was too easy for me to just pour another right, but when I switched to single serve, it makes it much. You don't do that right, you just this is all I'm having, and I think that's good for your kids too. It does cost more, but it's probably worth it for your own health and for your kids. Your thoughts on that, steve?
Speaker 3:It's a fantastic strategy, and I think this is the way that I would encourage people to think about it. Think about it from a harm reduction perspective. Right, when you feel yourself getting pulled in that direction of maybe I'm using too much, explore your options. What are options where you can put in some bumpers, right, yeah Well you can reduce it.
Speaker 1:And that's with everything, whether that's tobacco, marijuana, food. Don't buy the whole cake. If you struggle with eating sweets, buy one of those single slice pieces.
Speaker 3:It's an easy way to temper yourself.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. I come from a family where we do drink wine together in the holidays and I won't say it's 100%. 90 to 95% of the time it's without any insight. My father was in the liquor business and so this has always been a part of my family culture. And my father is getting older. He's 70 now and we just spent the weekend up in Boston for my brother-in-law's 40th birthday and it was great. I'm almost 43 and my dad's 70. And you still learn things from your parents as adults.
Speaker 3:But he threw the brakes on very quick up there in Boston. He's getting older. He recognizes this isn't great for his brain and two of the three he didn't have a drop and it was yeah, it was just, it was really cool and talking with him about it. He just don't have much time left, probably, and I need to make sure that I'm present and I don't like not remembering. I don't sort of the impact it has on my short-term memory. I don't like the impact it has on how I can tell a story and it was just, it was pretty amazing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and there is definitely brain impact from it. Yeah, that and the research If you want to, you know, increase your chance of dying younger or not having the cognitive skills. Substances will do that to you, yeah. One last thought, and we'll do more on this on the next show If you're here in Colorado or many other states, many of the younger parents like to have their gummies, have a little marijuana, eat a gummy, whatever.
Speaker 1:That's a situation where you need either single serve or you have like a lock box that you lock them up in, because kids are curious and they find things, and any little kid that sees a gummy bear is going to eat it. Yeah, and then they end up in the hospital and you're getting charged with child neglect. So you really have to think about whatever substances you're using. We know that there's mom's groups now for the micro dose psychedelic mushrooms as a way to relax. Fine, but keep it away from the kids, yeah, and kids will crawl and look through cabinets, they'll look through your bureau drawers, they'll look everywhere. That's just their nature, curiosity and novelty. So maybe you're taking care of those products that you're enjoying at a reasonable level and having a healthy relationship with it all. Well, steve, I want to thank you again for being on. I look forward to the next time. We'll do some mid January.
Speaker 3:Yeah, my pleasure. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, it's been very enjoyable. I want to finish with things of beauty make me cry. First, I want to just ask all of you to hold our niece and her husband, ashley and David, in your hearts and prayers. They had four children. She delivered twin girls about two and a half months ago, two months ago, and one of them got RSV and has been struggling all week. They had basically mom and dad are up two hours away from their home and she's in one of those incubator things with the rest Berater and it's touching go our hour. And it is the parents worst nightmare to think about losing your child. I just can't imagine what they're going through. Just horrendous, and so you only have to be a good enough parent, but what? The dealing with the fear of losing your child is just brutal. So I'd ask all of you to keep them in your thoughts and prayers, as we are. Oh, that was make me cry right now. The other one is I had just the most delightful early Christmas gift and I flew out Sunday night, late Sunday night, and got to spend most of Monday with my mom, who's now 97, in St Louis and it was just so precious.
Speaker 1:I walked around the nursing home and we looked at how everybody decorated their doors for Christmas and it was amazing. I couldn't believe some of these things we were looking at were probably 78 years old wreaths, all sorts of those statuaries and holiday decorations that probably these people had their whole line and that was spectacular. And then it was nail day. It was manicure day at the retirement community and my mom and I lined up and we both got our nails done together and it was just delightful. But the part that really just cut me to the core was I took my mom to.
Speaker 1:They have a chapel service Every other Monday. This was the Monday before Christmas, with Christmas being on Monday and they're not doing it next week. So the minister did a Christmas program and I got to sit with my mom and listen to her sing Silent Night by little Tom and Beth Lamb and I was just in tears because I know that might be the last time I ever heard my mom sing and it was just incredible. So, always thinking about your mom, that was one of the best Christmas gifts I ever got. I want to thank you all for listening. I hope you enjoyed the program. Thanks again, steve, you just have been lovely to talk with. I took a whole page of notes and we look forward to having you on again and again. If you enjoyed it, please share the podcast with a friend and have them check it out at legit parenting and have a very happy, peaceful, limited use of substances as holidays. How's?
Speaker 3:that, steve, I like it. Yeah, I'm sure it's not shaking.
Speaker 1:We don't want anybody shaking. We'll end with that one Keep your family stirred, thank you. Thank you, greg.